US TOUR

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drunk14
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Re: US TOUR

#61 Post by drunk14 » Mon 23 Mar 2020, 12:55 pm

Future Lover wrote:
Mon 23 Mar 2020, 8:30 am
I'm just waiting for the far-right bots to attack your post.
I'm honestly thinking of creating another forum which would be better moderated. There's no true neutrality on things like these, or let alone "listening to both sides" bullshit. Facts are facts, and every forum should ban dangerous ideas from spreading.
I think there is almost always space for discussion, at least in this specific case. You have some facts right now, but you dont know much about the future. The facts in the future will be different and some people try to make some predictions, no matter how controversial they seen to be. In person I have a big dilemma as I can expect that virus implications and possible collapse of the economies can be much more serious in its outcome than death of XXX thousands of people. It’s brutal but I am thinking... Now it's easy to say f*** off to Trump, be responsible, stay at home, listen to pundits' recommedations, pray or wait till everything dies down. I also adjust to this routine, but cannot escape a vision of destroyed business, unemployed people, new wave of poverty, suicides, lack of solidarity among the people, new wars as a result of broken supply chains and generał shortcomings. How many people are able to envisage this? Am I far right bot?
I've been around the world for a number of reasons. I've seen it all the change of seasons, and I, my lord, may I say nothing?

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Re: US TOUR

#62 Post by Future Lover » Mon 23 Mar 2020, 2:56 pm

Well, there's the presumption that people are having a lack of solidarity, when the opposite is true. All of the elderly in my country are now dependent on young volunteers, and we seem to be doing alright. It's the oligarchs that are hiding in their Doomsday bunkers, not giving a f*** about the little guy. The economy will die because of them, not the "barbaric lower classes which are acting like selfish animals", in that reductive capitalist worldview.
Imagine if money suddenly disappeared. The houses would still be there, the buildings, the food in the supermarkets, but would that mean nothing has value anymore? Obviously not. Saying no one would own anything would be a lie too. My country went through that as well, so we are super resilient to this stuff too. The rate of suicides didn't go as high as you'd imagine. It's more of a capitalist thing, again.
And obviously, what would be the alternative? Really unleash this everywhere and see what happens? Tell a bunch of old people they should just accept their death so the economy could work? 'Cause that's what it boils down to in the end. And are we seriously going to do that, as a society... for economy's sake? Cruel even for most jerks who jack off to Ayn Rand.
So yeah, I wouldn't call you a far right bot for seeing those nightmare visions - but it's not particularly clairvoyant or clever either.

Most importantly, that's not really what I had in mind, more like plain-sight homophobia, racism, xenophobia. Everything the Pet Shop Boys stand against, yet it stays on these pages without any control. And that only means those moderating this are fine with that, and have chosen their side.

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leesmapman
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Re: US TOUR

#63 Post by leesmapman » Mon 23 Mar 2020, 3:11 pm

Future Lover wrote:
Mon 23 Mar 2020, 2:56 pm
Cruel even for most jerks who jack off to Ayn Rand.
Don't underestimate the power of Atlas Shrugged.

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drunk14
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Re: US TOUR

#64 Post by drunk14 » Tue 24 Mar 2020, 3:37 pm

Future Lover wrote:
Mon 23 Mar 2020, 2:56 pm
Well, there's the presumption that people are having a lack of solidarity, when the opposite is true.
In the current situation it's absulutely understandable and instinctive behaviour. I also contribute to this project. But, again, I'm talking about future. Your debating point is more obvious right now, because we can see and feel all those positive efforts. My scenario is... well just a scenario, but unfortunately I believe it's possible despite I don't want it to be our reality for a few months.
Future Lover wrote:
Mon 23 Mar 2020, 2:56 pm
Imagine if money suddenly disappeared. The houses would still be there, the buildings, the food in the supermarkets, but would that mean nothing has value anymore? Obviously not. Saying no one would own anything would be a lie too.
Future Lover wrote:
Mon 23 Mar 2020, 2:56 pm
It's more of a capitalist thing, again.
It's unrealistic. Do I need to explain that? Like it or not, bu we all are capitalist right now. We have our habits, we are bonded with this system. We could project a new reality, but it would require a real revolution. I don't think people are ready and willing to bear such costs. And don't pretend it's just a "greasy capitalist" thing. It's all about us.
Future Lover wrote:
Mon 23 Mar 2020, 2:56 pm
Tell a bunch of old people they should just accept their death so the economy could work? 'Cause that's what it boils down to in the end. And are we seriously going to do that, as a society... for economy's sake? Cruel even for most jerks who jack off to Ayn Rand.
Unfortunately, that's the case and I think that this discussion makes sense and it's necessary. Regardless of possible scenarios and adapted policies, people should be aware of complexity of all these issues. If you say opposite, I dare to say you seem to be more radical than those who are called radicals by you. It all stems from extraordinary circumstances.

As to your question, you can read an article "Our Fight Against Coronavirus Worse Than the Disease?” in New York Times which is kind of my statement. I share that view more or less. And I know that there is no perfect solution, but these days the point is to choose the least damaging option. And that's why it's worth to discuss.
I've been around the world for a number of reasons. I've seen it all the change of seasons, and I, my lord, may I say nothing?

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Re: US TOUR

#65 Post by Future Lover » Tue 24 Mar 2020, 4:09 pm

www.nytimes.com/2020/03/23/opinion/lett ... e.amp.html

I'll listen to the experts, quoted in the same source.

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