Video Remasters

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lucienchardon
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Re: Video Remasters

#31 Post by lucienchardon »

There's definitely a difference. Especially on It's A Sin, which looks better now. It's a great set of songs/videos. They should have included Being Boring too.

I find the number of views on YouTube interesting. I would have expected "Can You Forgive Her?" and "I Don't Know What You Want...." to have a lot more views. Two of their very best videos in my opinion.

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Oznerol
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Re: Video Remasters

#32 Post by Oznerol »

..what I always wonder is how they manage to change/update the video quality but keeeping the views of the old original version previously published. I tried to do this a few times but counln´t find the way to.
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Re: Video Remasters

#33 Post by NotInvisible »

Oznerol wrote:
Sat 27 Jun 2020, 4:37 pm
Of course they´re just up-scaled videos since "negatives" of a native video flimed/edited piece never existed.
...which is why every HD release requires a ground-up rebuild using the dailies negatives and the original EDL. It's not rocket science. Many of the older videos were shot on film, which means they can be assembled in true high definition if the negatives exist. Alternately a new scan can be made from the interpositive. It depends what was kept in an archive.
The real examples of old video-clips on real HD (Like Wham!, A-ha, Elton) are rare exceptions where those video-clips were actually filmed and editen on 35 or16mm film. Rare exceptions...
This simply isn't true, sorry. Most vintage videos were shot on film.

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Oznerol
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Re: Video Remasters

#34 Post by Oznerol »

NotInvisible wrote:
Sun 28 Jun 2020, 4:17 pm
Oznerol wrote:
Sat 27 Jun 2020, 4:37 pm
Of course they´re just up-scaled videos since "negatives" of a native video flimed/edited piece never existed.
...which is why every HD release requires a ground-up rebuild using the dailies negatives and the original EDL. It's not rocket science. Many of the older videos were shot on film, which means they can be assembled in true high definition if the negatives exist. Alternately a new scan can be made from the interpositive. It depends what was kept in an archive.
The real examples of old video-clips on real HD (Like Wham!, A-ha, Elton) are rare exceptions where those video-clips were actually filmed and editen on 35 or16mm film. Rare exceptions...
This simply isn't true, sorry. Most vintage videos were shot on film.

The fact that they were shot on film doesn´t mean at all that the final video edition was made on film. On the PSB videos, MOST of them. you can see MANY "video" filters and effects applied to the image. That´s a very big signal that they were edited and post-produced on video, not on film. So, "negatives" of the final video never existed. It´s not so hard to undestand! We must assume that, even if we don´t like the idea... :/
Also, for sure on the early 80's the idea of make all the process on film was still strong..but since mid 80's, when the video edition became easier and stronger and a new battery of facilities and a world of new effects appeared (mostly for music-videos, a genre always on the edge of modernity and technological advances), soon the processs changed...for worst or for good...depends on the result...
Last edited by Oznerol on Sun 28 Jun 2020, 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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boyjohn
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Re: Video Remasters

#35 Post by boyjohn »

You guys are talking past each other. It's true that filmed videos (which I think are all until you get into the 2000's) could be rescanned and the video effects (if any) could be recreated/recomposed to make HD versions of many of them. Now whether it is financially feasible is another issue.

I would prefer that the money went to get Deep Space Nine gets done instead though.
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Oznerol
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Re: Video Remasters

#36 Post by Oznerol »

boyjohn wrote:
Sun 28 Jun 2020, 7:04 pm
You guys are talking past each other. It's true that filmed videos (which I think are all until you get into the 2000's) could be rescanned and the video effects (if any) could be recreated/recomposed to make HD versions of many of them. Now whether it is financially feasible is another issue.

I would prefer that the money went to get Deep Space Nine gets done instead though.
I think you're underestimating the huge work that all that process involves! And the result will be always different if you try to "re-create" them. Anyway... for sure a lot of the old videos were done directly on video. Music-videos were a genre conceived to be consumed on TV, so they abandoned the filmic support way before 2000. Of course there were exceptions, but the vast majority were filmed directly on video. Unless the studios liked to waste resources, money and time... and I don't think that was the case... :/
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Re: Video Remasters

#37 Post by NotInvisible »

Oznerol wrote:
Sun 28 Jun 2020, 6:10 pm
The fact that they were shot on film doesn´t mean at all that the final video edition was made on film.
I think you'll find I already addressed this.
On the PSB videos, MOST of them. you can see MANY "video" filters and effects applied to the image. That´s a very big signal that they were edited and post-produced on video, not on film.
Editing on video was rare in the '80s, but in any event it doesn't really matter since there will have been an EDL for the film negative. Some of the videos have obvious video processing but most of them are simple effects that can be achieved with film. It's not until we get to the later videos that this really becomes a problem.
I think you're underestimating the huge work that all that process involves!
It's work that happens all the time, though, and for stuff with lesser commercial potential. Pretty much anything released on Blu-ray prior to HD conforms becoming the norm has been rebuilt from the negative or newly scanned interpositive, which means it's being assembled shot by shot all over again. It's a standard process.
Anyway... for sure a lot of the old videos were done directly on video. Music-videos were a genre conceived to be consumed on TV, so they abandoned the filmic support way before 2000. Of course there were exceptions, but the vast majority were filmed directly on video.
They really weren't, and in fact it's immediately obvious what's shot on film and what's shot on video just by looking at it. If you can't see the difference between It's a Sin and Mickey by Toni Basil, you shouldn't be having this conversation at all.

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Re: Video Remasters

#38 Post by NotInvisible »

boyjohn wrote:
Sun 28 Jun 2020, 7:04 pm
It's true that filmed videos (which I think are all until you get into the 2000's) could be rescanned and the video effects (if any) could be recreated/recomposed to make HD versions of many of them.
Yep. And most of the '80s ones don't even feature video effects at all.
I would prefer that the money went to get Deep Space Nine gets done instead though.
I would prefer this too! Did you see the HD sequences in the recent documentary?

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Greendrake
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Re: Video Remasters

#39 Post by Greendrake »

NotInvisible wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020, 2:42 am
in fact it's immediately obvious what's shot on film and what's shot on video just by looking at it
Maybe thy could please list which PSB videos were shot on what?

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Re: Video Remasters

#40 Post by boyjohn »

NotInvisible wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020, 2:44 am
boyjohn wrote:
Sun 28 Jun 2020, 7:04 pm
It's true that filmed videos (which I think are all until you get into the 2000's) could be rescanned and the video effects (if any) could be recreated/recomposed to make HD versions of many of them.
Yep. And most of the '80s ones don't even feature video effects at all.
I would prefer that the money went to get Deep Space Nine gets done instead though.
I would prefer this too! Did you see the HD sequences in the recent documentary?
Yes, pretty damn stunning.
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Re: Video Remasters

#41 Post by NotInvisible »

Greendrake wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020, 3:03 am
Maybe thy could please list which PSB videos were shot on what?
Opportunities on film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di60NYGu03Y
Opportunities on video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyeWRd7ZEBs

For the vintage stuff, it's virtually all on film. The negative or interpositive can be scanned in HD (this often requires assembling the shots based on the original EDL if a master edit is not available). The modern stuff is virtually all on video, but with film lenses. It's already in HD for the most part.

It's the middle stuff that's problematic - stuff like Can You Forgive Her, which is shot on film but involves a ton CG work, which at the time would have been rendered in CG. Those videos will never be true HD unless the CG files can be found and re-exported with HD textures. Never going to happen.

Most of these older videos are probably fake HD anyway - professional upscales using software. For example that second Opportunities video listed above claims to be in HD on YouTube - not only is this not true, it's literally impossible. HD video didn't exist back then!

Most music videos were shot on film in the '80s and well into the '90s. It was just standard practice for the industry. Vintage video looks like a soap opera or a game show. Things started to bleed over in the late '80s and you'd get filmed content edited on video, stuff like Star Trek: The Next Generation and The X-Files. That material can be re-scanned from the negative and be re-assembled in true HD, but any video effects or CG would have to be recreated as HD elements or those specific shots would be SD material, usually upscaled to 'fake' HD levels.

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Re: Video Remasters

#42 Post by Greendrake »

NotInvisible wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020, 3:17 am
It's the middle stuff that's problematic - stuff like Can You Forgive Her, which is shot on film but involves a ton CG work, which at the time would have been rendered in CG. Those videos will never be true HD unless the CG files can be found and re-exported with HD textures. Never going to happen.
Say what Go West was filmed on can be seen in this documentary starting from 0:33. At 0:52 Howard Greenhalgh even talks about it. But I do not quite get what kind of camera that is.

I tend to believe the CG files were not lost or thrown away. Whoever fancies spending money to gaze at and be hypnotized by the morphing blue ball with orange pins in HD (or even 4K) can approach Howard Greenhalgh / Why Not Films / Soho 601 and get it done :D .

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Re: Video Remasters

#43 Post by NotInvisible »

Greendrake wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020, 6:43 am
Say what Go West was filmed on can be seen in this documentary starting from 0:33. At 0:52 Howard Greenhalgh even talks about it.
Yes - hence my comment in the post you quoted:
It's the middle stuff that's problematic - stuff like Can You Forgive Her, which is shot on film but involves a ton CG work
The plates and live action elements were shot on film, but the CG elements would have been rendered in SD prior to comping them in and therefore the video will never be available in proper HD unless new hi-def renders are provided.
But I do not quite get what kind of camera that is.
It's a 16mm film camera. You won't get the same level of detail as 32mm footage but it would still look much better than current SD presentations.
I tend to believe the CG files were not lost or thrown away.
They probably were - it was a one-off production nearly 30 years ago. But even if the company that made them still exists, and even if they keep immaculate archives, and even if the file formats are compatible with modern software, in 1993 the elements wouldn't have been made with HD textures, because HD didn't exist. So either you're stuck with an artificial up-res or you're paying an artist to retexture the CG elements with newly created HD textures. Anything with CG from this period is incredibly challenging to release in true HD. For example, the X-Files Blu-ray box set didn't bother - those shots are SD up-res rather than true HD. It's also one of the things blocking the Blu-ray release of shows like Deep Space Nine (Next Generation by comparison required the HD rebuild of optical effects, which are completely different).

It's the SD CG that's the tricky part, not re-assembling the original edits from negative or the interpositive.

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Oznerol
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Re: Video Remasters

#44 Post by Oznerol »

NotInvisible wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020, 3:17 am
...
Most of these older videos are probably fake HD anyway - professional upscales using software. For example that second Opportunities video listed above claims to be in HD on YouTube - not only is this not true, it's literally impossible. HD video didn't exist back then!
...
Welll mot "most"..ALL the new supposed "HD" versions uploaded on youtube are a joke. Just made them more blurred, less contrast and more colour. And removing black bars on top and botton on the widescreen videos (like It's a sin). And that´s it. ALL of them are soften in definition than the old standard definition videos on the PopArt DVD (they look sharpen than the new "HD" updates...) :eh:

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Re: Video Remasters

#45 Post by NotInvisible »

Oznerol wrote:
Mon 29 Jun 2020, 5:00 pm
Welll mot "most"..ALL the new supposed "HD" versions uploaded on youtube are a joke.
I said "most" because I was speculating - they're so disappointing I didn't bother to watch them "all". :)

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