PSB and autism

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No Muscle Mary
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Re: PSB and autism

#16 Post by No Muscle Mary »

Choliux wrote: Fri 28 Jul 2017, 2:52 am I've been a die hard fan since I was 8 or 10. I was very shy and introvert and related to songs like Left To My Own Devices and Can You Forgive Her. Two years ago my 2 year old son was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder. Since then I've been reading and consuming as much as I can on the subject and now I can't help to "diagnose" (in my head) people who exhibit some autistic traits but are not officially on the spectrum (like say, Gary Numan, Bob Dylan, or recently Marc Almond). I started to suspect that Morrissey may be an Aspie, and more recently Chris. In some way, it gives me comfort knowing that mu heroes and role models are on the spectrum. Somewhat of a silver lining in an otherwise very painful situation.
Gary Numan is quite open about being Aspergers.
I too think probably Morrissey.

You always gravitate towards your own tribe and certainly many PSB lyrics would be relatable to people with ASD. And their image, the outsiders, serious, intelligent.
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Janet Street-Porter
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Re: PSB and autism

#17 Post by Janet Street-Porter »

I think there is a significant difference between somebody who is genuinely autistic and those who have may demonstrate certain traits associated with autism or Asperger's - i.e. they're socially awkward. I myself would say I am the latter, but having known genuinely autistic people, I find it impossible to consider somebody like Showbiz Neil to be autistic.

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jasonjohn
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Re: PSB and autism

#18 Post by jasonjohn »

Janet Street-Porter wrote: I think there is a significant difference between somebody who is genuinely autistic and those who have may demonstrate certain traits associated with autism or Asperger's - i.e. they're socially awkward. I myself would say I am the latter, but having known genuinely autistic people, I find it impossible to consider somebody like Showbiz Neil to be autistic.
Entirely agree.

People get carried away with it being a "spectrum", thinking the traits are the same but milder at one end.

But to truly have this condition is absolutely devastating to the person and people around him/her, and not something to be casually equated to.

Both N&C are socially aware, emotive, and comprehensive communicators. Their shyness and need for privacy is something human.

I'd suggest celebrities obsessed with themselves and the spotlight are far more likely to be emotionally stunted than our N&C.

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No Muscle Mary
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Re: PSB and autism

#19 Post by No Muscle Mary »

My son who is high functioning ASD is socially aware and to meet him, you would never guess he has autism. Many people with autism, especially girls, are wonderful at masking their symptoms. A lifetime of trying hard to fit in has taught them this. My daughter is on the spectrum too but she masks so well outside of the home, that nobody would know how much she struggles.
I hope my kids go on to have as normal a life as possible.
Unless you know Neil and Chris on an intimate and personal level, you can't say that they don't have autism. If they say they're both a bit autistic, I take them on their word. We don't know whether they've struggled or ever been diagnosed. There is still a big stigma around autism, can't see them casually associating themselves with it. I'm sure they know what they're talking about.
I've been a social communicator all my life and ran magazines, was out and about representing them and being the face of them, involved on the boards of community organisations - nobody who knows me would think I could be Aspie. But then they don't get to see the whole picture.
You've had plenty of people on this thread with real life experiences of being on the spectrum themselves or having children with it. We are the experts. If we see all the signs in Neil and Chris then the signs are there. We live with it. Since my son's diagnosis I've spent every spare minute researching autism in its many forms. My son's type is pathological demand avoidance which is massively challenging but he can chat away to people normally and is quite social.
Showbiz Neil is likely just a mask. One that took years to perfect. They didn't tour for four years. It was about 15 years into their career that he really became a luvvie. For years he said he preferred early nights at home and said having a number one song felt like "vaguely nothing" and like having a cup of tea.
ASD being a spectrum means different symptoms at different levels all the way across. One child might not be able to talk, but another might be a brilliant communicator who has huge sensory processing difficulties.
And autism is not always devastating. In fact, it can have some up sides. As Gary Numan explains here (and yes, he's diagnosed and has struggled and been thrown out of several schools).

https://youtu.be/aTKHZeP-IZQ
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jasonjohn
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Re: PSB and autism

#20 Post by jasonjohn »

No Muscle Mary wrote: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 9:34 am Unless you know Neil and Chris on an intimate and personal level, you can't say that they don't have autism.
You started an entire thread not knowing them. Their comment was off the cuff.

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No Muscle Mary
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Re: PSB and autism

#21 Post by No Muscle Mary »

jasonjohn wrote: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 12:05 pm
No Muscle Mary wrote: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 9:34 am Unless you know Neil and Chris on an intimate and personal level, you can't say that they don't have autism.
You started an entire thread not knowing them. Their comment was off the cuff.
And you know that how?
It really isn't something you'd just say without having thought about it.

And if this thread and their comment has helped people on the forum who are ASD to talk about it openly, then I'm glad I started - oh wow like an entire thread, as if that's a big deal! - about it.

And frankly, as a mum of two wonderful ASD children, and an ASD niece and nephew too, I find it offensive that you say to have it is devastating to the person and those around them. No, it's not. It's difficult at times but certainly not devastating, and even a blessing sometimes too. I wouldn't change myself or my kids. Some families have it harder than us but to say it's devastating is a sweeping generalisation. And hurtful. What's so bloody great about being neurotypical anyway?
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No Muscle Mary
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Re: PSB and autism

#22 Post by No Muscle Mary »

The possibility that Neil and Chris are on the spectrum gives hopes to families of high functioning kids like mine. Hope for their future outcomes.
Don't dismiss it out of hand just because you don't like the idea of it or are ignorant enough about ASD to think it's not possible.

I wonder if what Neil had never mentioned it before and said "I think we're both a bit gay" would anyone have assumed that to be a throwaway comment? No, it would have been seen as a very big deal.
In fact, Chris has never said he's gay. Yet it is just assumed with no evidence. Not even a throwaway comment. Is that because it's more socially acceptable to be gay than to have autism?
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Drico One
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Re: PSB and autism

#23 Post by Drico One »

Well, that's escalated.

I haven't wanted to get involved in this thread because I like some of the people involved, respect their experiences, and have no desire to personally offend, but there are a lot of rather definitive statements in this thread that seem pretty dubious to say the least.

I think the original comment was flippant. That's not to say that one or both of them could not be "on the spectrum", but I think it's slightly inappropriate claiming them for autism or attempting some form of virtual diagnosis because Chris likes to wear a hoodie, have his picture photoshopped, and insert his head in a glitter ball. That's showbiz.

For what it's worth, anybody who can get up on a stage and perform to an audience is probably a little different from the norm. We've all got our issues, foibles, and flaws. That's what makes us human.

Drico.
The pale kid that hides in the attic behind his PC...

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Re: PSB and autism

#24 Post by TallThinMan »

Drico One wrote: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 2:12 pmThat's what makes us human.
How very dare you lump me in with your species! :P

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jasonjohn
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Re: PSB and autism

#25 Post by jasonjohn »

No Muscle Mary wrote: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 12:52 pm
jasonjohn wrote: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 12:05 pm
No Muscle Mary wrote: Sat 29 Jul 2017, 9:34 am Unless you know Neil and Chris on an intimate and personal level, you can't say that they don't have autism.
You started an entire thread not knowing them. Their comment was off the cuff.
And you know that how?

So which is it? To be able to expertly diagnose them like this must know Neil and Chris on a personal and intimate level - right?

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No Muscle Mary
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Re: PSB and autism

#26 Post by No Muscle Mary »

I diagnosed nobody. I opened a discussion on whether it was possible/likely considering their comment about it. I had suspected for years that they might have it.

And either way, it doesn't matter. Would be nice for ASD fans and to break down the stigma around autism.

Nobody except themselves knows one way or the other.

But it should be open for discussion. Any comment they make should be open for discussion.

It was them who said "I think we're both a bit autistic", not me.
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jasonjohn
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Re: PSB and autism

#27 Post by jasonjohn »

Just a general observation, not targeting anyone.

If you're in a room and a few of you have been touched by autism, but luckily for you it's at a level where "nobody could ever tell", then that's fine, and by all means be a shining light and bond together with optimism.

Just be mindful that there might be someone in your audience for whom the condition is massively debilitating and distressing. For whom the condition has no light at the end of the tunnel, and lives are ruined and families torn apart. And if that person starts to share that experience, don't fob their reality off as being offensive to you.

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Re: PSB and autism

#28 Post by fac23 »

Being just a little more than shy myself, I thought this was an interesting way to look at some their career decisions and maybe see why I immediately identified with their public personas even before I could understand their lyrics. But like others here, I tend to think that remark was more off the cuff. People often use terms like "autism" or "depression" (or what have you) when talking about themselves but you really have to know them well to understand what exactly they mean be that. It may mean a lot to anyone who has ever been in a deep depression or finds themselves somewhere on the autistic spectrum (or both) but I think when reading too much into it, there's also the risk of devaluating the terms – thereby doing a disservice to those actually affected.

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Re: PSB and autism

#29 Post by Jaf »

My mum was a special needs teacher, my dad a carer in a home for specials needs people. At that level life was hard, sad, scary. I think some people have latched onto autism as an excuse for bad behaviour and frankly that pisses me off.

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Re: PSB and autism

#30 Post by samsteven »

Here is the source that will help you with all the detailed information about autism - https://www.everydayhealth.com/autism/

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